Talk:Greaves

I may be nitpicking, but I'm not fond of the custom infobox here. Although superficially similar to the extensions on Drake, I think it works better in that article: The article is longer, and it already has the avatar section breaking it up - adding the pet and trinket boxes would likely just be disruptive. Here, though, we already don't have a standard infobox, and that green is just garish. ;) I guess what I'm really saying is that for consistency's sake, if there are changes that need to be made to the {{Infobox pirate}} ^(Usage), we should do that there. The pet and trinket sections of that template were just my stab in the dark, I didn't really consult the community to see if the solution is sufficient. Or is consistency not enough of a motivation? Ramblingly yours, --AtteSmythe 10:47, 8 September 2006 (PDT)

the editions are my doing, as i did my own page. The plan was to have it consistent with the eventual portraits. however, the current rank was an attempt at some new styling which can be removed.

The sections on pets and trinkets in the main content should have been deleted as part of the updates. Many other pirates have lists of their pets and trinkets, and there seems to be a variation. The infobox that i wrote there i felt was easy to understand, clear, and customisable. I would very much like them to stay, as i am slowly building up them pages -- Minimoses 11:28, 8 September 2006 (PDT)

My primary concern is that people have lots of trinkets, and they take a lot of vertical space in the infobox. On this page, it takes up less than a standard infobox, but Muffbeard and Idol's pages are each made to scroll considerably simply to show the infobox. On pages such as Dcyborg's, the same is true, but there's both more information there and room horizontally to double the trinket count without increasing the scroll any more (4-5x for uninscribed trinkets). I guess I just wonder what happens when someone wants to put their 50 favorite trinkets in their infobox.

Anything commonly used in the pirate page infoboxes, I'd like to roll into {{Infobox pirate}} ^(Usage), so that all the pages can be maintained by editing the template. If the one pet and trinket in the at-the-glance information isn't enough, I'm more than open to adding more, but I think there should be some sort of limit. It's supposed to be at-a-glance, after all.

I think the rank is a really good idea, and I'd like to incorporate that into the infobox. It's good at-a-glance information. If we could get a separate fleet officer icon, we could use the rank icon and link the crew name, which I think could be really neat.

So, to recap my rambling: I'd like the at-a-glance information to be as standardized as possible, and the ability to update usage through the infobox-pirate template. What can we do to achieve this? I agree that the features are new and folks are just starting to use them on their pages, so now is exactly the time to figure out style guidelines for their usage, while the pages are maintainable. --AtteSmythe 22:06, 8 September 2006 (PDT)

O..k... had to try and digest all that. I look at muffbeard's page, and notice it looks almost identical to mine - did he add the same code i used after i created it? Is this the example you mean with the 50 trinkets in a list?

On my drake page, i have like 20 cards from my wedding, which i was thinking of listing, but after looking at Muff's page, i see how long it would be. However, my information is sufficient to blend that in.

I am a little confused (sorry) with how to add this to an "at a glance" section for the infobox. And unsure on how we can limit them. It is a shame there was no such command, where you could have a type of drop down box - Says trinkets... shows your favourite... you press a button, and the rest appear, until you click away. That would allow as many trinkets you want, yet, keeps things tidy.

There is a function similar to that on the Wikipedia, but so far we've been unable to replicate it here on the YPPedia. Hopefully soon.--Fiddler 06:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

Is there anyway you could show me what you mean on this page, with maybe using my information from Drake (as its more complete) or draw a sketch?

I agree with you, that as this seems to be a trend thats growing (was i a trend setter? :P) that it should be contained and controlled from the start.

The idea for controlling it was to limit the built-in pet and trinket sections of the pirate infobox to one of each. After all, when you're in the game you can only display one at a time. However, those clever enough to code past the built-in restriction have already opened the genie's bottle.--Fiddler 06:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

In addition - i found it very difficult to find how to write the coding for the templates. I searched all the template sections, clicked their links, and it never showed me how to actually write the template and convert it to your own page. I saw a large page of template information, but, in order to assist people in keeping everything standardised, i think its vital that a "dummy's guide to wiki coding" be produced. I know there are some links to the global wiki, but thats even more technical and confusing. Thoughts? --Minimoses 01:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

If you're referring to the actual writing of a new template then yes, that is something that we lack documentation for. However, even proper Mediawiki and Wikipedia sources have poor and hard-to-find documentation in that regards.

If you mean how to fill in the {{Infobox pirate}} ^(Usage) template, then full instructions are given on the main page. Unfortunately, it's not very easy to direct people to find those instructions, so what happens is that most users simply copy what they find elsewhere and modify it.--Fiddler 06:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

In addition -

I was playing around with the infobox code, as realised, you cant have more than one pet or trinket on display at a time. And thats really not what i would like, as a user for my page.

I used this code - (minus the "{{" tags and the "br" tags)

|Infobox pirate

|piratename= Drake

|portrait= yes

|designer= yes

|galleries= 1

|-

|pet=yes

|petname=Macy

|pettype=Dog

|petcolor1=brown

|petcolor2=tan

|petcolor3=ignored

|-

|pet=yes

|petname=Spike

|pettype=Dog

|petcolor1=brown

|petcolor2=white

|petcolor3=ignored

|-

|trinket=yes

|-

|ocean1= Hunter

And thats when i discovered that you can only have 1 pet or trinket at a time.

Templates are a bit like a form letter. Each petname= or petcolor= takes the value you specify when you call the template from a certain page and fills it into the layout and structure of the template itself. What you attempted to do above with the pets was to fill in two different values for the same field.

Take a look at Silverdawg and hit edit. In order to list those 24 familiars, each one has to have a name, ocean, and type/color specified, and each variable needs a unique name. It has already become an unmaintainable system, and to add such "infinitely long list" capabilities to the trinket and pet sections will eventually break the infobox template.--Fiddler 06:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

Also i was unable to add these "type" of codes (which i have probably made up) -

|rank=captain Image:xxx

|crew=clueless

|flag=Armada de Invincible

That is because in order to add new variables into the template, you first need to edit the template "form." You need to create a look and style for these element and to dictate how they will be displayed. As AtteSmythe mentioned, this is a good idea and can be incorporated easily.--Fiddler 06:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the one i wrote as a seperate infobox, it doesnt look too friendly. Looks deceiving when you click the "+ pets" button (thats where the drop down box should be, but probably too hard) And i liked the way the box i wrote looks, with its stand out colours, etc.

This is where incorporating some of the more recent additions into the standard template becomes a good idea. By doing so, you can control certain elements globally, such as the color and shading of infobox segments. This way, you can find colors that work together and with the existing YPPEdia style.--Fiddler 06:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

However, i do agree it needs to be limited somehow. For example. I have 3 skelly trinkets. So i wrote "Quantity: 3". But i doubt everyone would do this. So im not too sure -- Minimoses 01:36, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

I honestly think that one trinket and one pet in the infobox are fine since (as I mentioned above) you can only display one at a time anyways while you are playing the game. However, I am certainly un-opposed to allowing huge lists in the body of the article, especially if we can replicate the show/hide function that Wikipedia has (You can see an example of what I'm talking about here on the wikipedia.)--Fiddler 06:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

One thing to keep in mind during this discussion is that the YPPEdia is still an encyclopedia about Puzzle Pirates. As such there is a level of conformity and regularity that should be kept about pirate articles, in order to make them easy to use and a good reference source for the reader. While it's great that you have such an active interest in the articles about you and your friends, they also really don't belong to you either, and we (you and I and everyone else, the collective we) should strive to make the articles useful to the casual reader of the YPPEdia.--Fiddler 06:10, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

I love that hide/show feature.

I also understand that its a collective encyclopedia; there is a lot of irregularity. I know the page doesnt belong to me, but its nice to take ownership of such pages as nobody else would, and sources would be strained. Im not sure there is a complete solution or strategy for it.

I also understand only one of each can be displayed on the game, but as an encyclopedia, this is where you would see all that you dont on the game. With more indepth information. As a reader and user, i would like to see all the trinkets people own, and on an operational way, if the hide/show option can be placed into the infobox, that would be a good compromise--Minimoses 12:09, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

I considered editing out the + on the pet and trinket graphics used in the infobox_pirate, but left them in considering we might want to expand those fields some day. Looking on how it's developed, I'm leaning more towards removing the + from the graphic and encouraging long lists in the article body. That way, you don't have to feel any compulsion to not list all your wedding cards, or put the island on which you won each of your 30 skellie heads, or what have you. --AtteSmythe 16:06, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

 :D

I think there should be an element of 'grouping'. Like if you win a dozen skellies, do we really need to know what island they come from? A 'quantity:x' can generalise.

Wedding cards are a little more unique, and personal, but there is no way to add the message of whats on the card to the graphic, not sure if we can add an overlap field for that message, because that would make the card trinkets on the wiki that little more special.

A loooooong list might be unappealing to the eye, but it would be factual, and i personally would like to see this. I have refrained from adding the cards to the pages until we can find a unique way, and satisfied way to resolve this. -- Minimoses 01:59, 10 September 2006 (PDT)

CORRECTION - i added all my trinkets to my Drake page, to show you how long a list can be. Thats all the trinkets i have. I grouped the Skelly skulls i own, and listed the individual wedding cards. As i said, it would be awesome, if when you hovered your mouse over the card, it would display something (like whats actually written on the card). I also had to play around with the art gallery to make it look more asthetic.

Although i am aware it works better on my page than Greaves or Reade, its only because of my position in game, and i am workin with them to achieve more. -- Minimoses 03:50, 10 September 2006 (PDT)

I would suggest that infoboxes are meant to deliver information "at-a-glance". When you have to scroll down to get it, it's no longer serving that purpose, IMO. (And I run on a gigantic monitor.) --Ponytailguy 07:47, 10 September 2006 (PDT)

Am I to read from your account that you also support moving bulk trinket lists out of the infobox and to the main article space? Doing so would allow everything you seem to dislike about how the infobox on Drake works - shorter lists with more information (inscription, etc.) on them. I'd actually thought of the tooltip thing when first implementing the trinket in the infobox_pirate, but I couldn't figure out a way to implement that. --AtteSmythe 10:00, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

{{Infobox pirate}} ^(Usage) redesign

Since there was a good discussion here about the future of the pirate infobox, I thought I would point out that a discussion to redesign it is going on at Template talk:Infobox pirate. --AtteSmythe 08:44, 26 September 2006 (PDT)