Talk:Limited edition ship prices

Why is this page a good fit for the Wiki?

I'm sure I'm only the first of what will surely be many to say that this page doesn't belong on the wiki. Nor, for that matter, does any page listing pricing, nor attempting to make pricing look "official." The easy, offhand reasons why this page shouldn't exist:

• This page completely fails to take into account subscription or foreign-language oceans. This assumes everyone plays on an ocean where doubloons have influenced, and still do influence, prices. Not only that, but it also, due to the very nature of doubloon prices, takes into account the history of doubloon prices.
• This page assumes that what current prices are is important. The only time we list prices on this wiki is for gems, and that's only because those prices *don't change*.
• Current prices have absolutely no historical value. They would belong on a spreadsheet, or possibly on the forums. Not on the wiki.

For these reasons, and, undoubtedly, others, I propose the deletion of this page. Edited to add: I do not think this information is worthless, rather, that it doesn't belong on the wiki itself. There are appropriate venues for this information, and it would indeed be found useful there.Jlh0605 ^(t/c) 00:03, 3 June 2015 (PDT)

• delete Userfy As much as I appreciate the effort made to collect this information and to put it into the yppedia, I agree that this page does not belong here for the reasons listed by the nominator. The article says that these prices are " cost when new from a shipyard", but those prices varied greatly from immediately after the release to late in the month, and from high demand islands to little known SYs.

More over, there is no way to verify these claims. I've sometimes pondered using the recipes to figure out the original cost, but even that doesn't work. The prices of key commodities often changed greatly while the ships were being made, and even if there weren't price spikes, commodity prices have often changed significantly over they years (yes, price cycles can take years). Also, depending on demand, the profit margin that SY owners set also varied greatly.

Now, much later, how valuable these LE ships are depends on even more variables, so even if these values accurately reflect "new" costs, that doesn't mean much to current yppedia users.

Basically, I can't see how to extract useful information from this data. Wrs1864b 10:11, 3 June 2015 (PDT)

This is actually based on a list I made based on subscription ocean prices and posted on the Cerulean forums, so if anything it doesn't take into account doubloon prices at all. It is based on how much I and others spent on them when they were available. I have a public link to a googledocs spreadsheet LE Ship Prices List for those interested. I didn't post it here myself for the same reasons you guys have, meant more to help people on the forums. Lizardorb 10:22, 3 June 2015 (PDT)

Thank you, your google spread sheet is a good place for this kind of thing. Here is a copy of my LE ship prices records. My copy is no where near as complete, but it is much more detailed. Wrs1864b 17:14, 3 June 2015 (PDT)

I have changed my opinion to Userfy, deleting is not needed. Eventually, if the page can be improved enough, it could be brought back into the main wiki. Just be cause I can't think of anyway to improve it enough doesn't mean it can't be. Wrs1864b 06:43, 6 June 2015 (PDT)

• comment I see that the article has been updated, but it doesn't address the problems. In particular, despite both my records and the article prices being on blue oceans, the prices are *WAY* different. And, my records vary a lot depending on how long after the release the prices are recorded. So, claiming, for example, that Phantom sloops "cost" 30k when I, and almost everyone else, was selling them for 50k+ for most of the month gives readers of the yppedia article very misleading information.

Also, I seriously doubt that the developers judge the price by how closely the "theme" of the LE ship was to real pirate ships. Such speculation has no place in a yppedia article. Wrs1864b 17:14, 3 June 2015 (PDT)

• Keep: None of the reasons for deletion are valid on a wiki.

The fact that this information is nowhere else on the wiki in and of itself makes this page valuable. Having all the prices collected on one page instead of scattered on each page makes comparing old prices easier (ex: which cost more, a Fortune Junk or a Verdant Baghlah?) and is easier to update and complete.

A wiki really is the best place for people to gather information from multiple sources to one place where everyone can edit it. For editors, a bunch of random google docs isn't easy to find, often is locked to editing, can be forgotten/abandoned/deleted easily, can be easily ruined by trolls with no "reset" button, and is likely to be highly incomplete. From an info seeker's point of view, google docs have very limited formatting making them harder to read and are scattered and lack uniformity making good information hard to find.

If the prices not listing Dubloons or being incomplete is a problem, those prices can also be added. This is a wiki and incomplete information should mean a "stub" tag, not deletion. If the prices are off, several people can compare prices on the talk page then pick the closest price. We have means of communication over a wiki in order to help this happen. Google docs don't have that option.

The historical value has already been mentioned on the page: it's nice to know how much things were worth at the time as well as to see a list by date as it tells users where we have been and how things have changed. It also can help give a "low end" baseline for people looking to buy or sell. I know I wanted this info when was in the market for an LE ship. Besides, just because it wasn't world-changing doesn't mean that it's not a part of history. We have pages on random pirates who did nothing special in the big scheme of things and those still stand as part of history even though they never made a huge impact. Not being earth-shattering is not the same as "not part of history at all".

On a side note, the idea of making custom things that may not match the game theme cost more is common in game design as already seen elsewhere such as in the ship renames with things that aren't Adjective Fish costing more. The prices of ships that don't look piratey costing more follows the pattern. I couldn't find the posts that stated these as facts, though, so if someone wants to ask and get the answer, we can remove it or improve it from there. - Lamoxlamae 21:03, 3 June 2015 (PDT)

Again, as I document above, these costs listed in this article are bogus. Also, real pirate ships did not use the Adjective Fishname theme, so that example doesn't support your claim. Yes, limited/customized things are often priced differently, but I've seen nothing that supports your claim. Wrs1864b 04:14, 4 June 2015 (PDT)

I Never said it was historical pirate ships, just matching in-game themes. :) Monkeys and jungle? Fairly plentiful themes in-game. Skellies and vampires? They happen in-game even though uncommon. Living chess sets or idols that turn you into a bunny? Not anywhere in the game prior to the release of the ships containing them and, even then, they only exist on those limited ships because they don't match the rest of the game. This is what I meant by "piratey-ness", as in "fitting the stuff/theme already in the game". - Lamoxlamae 19:03, 4 June 2015 (PDT)

• Alternate proposal: move it to your user namespace. --Belthazar451 01:57, 4 June 2015 (PDT)

That would work. Yes, the data in this article is questionable at best, but I guess some people might find it useful anyway. Wrs1864b 04:14, 4 June 2015 (PDT)

• Delete unless figures improved. Prices vary in time and between oceans as mentioned. There is no method specified for gathering these figures so I am assuming they are arbitrary snapshots (from an inn or a single shipyard, or even from memory). Values from single points in time might be a long way off the true monthly "going rate". These numbers are not useful. Therefore I propose deletion (or removal to userspace) if we cannot somehow make these figures truly represent the initial value of these ships.

For a good estimate, I would suggest listing on the page:

number of doubloons required to purchase (constant) estimated minimum/maxmimum/average PoE value of the doubloons at the time (average over 1 month) estimated minimum/maximum/average PoE cost of all the requisite commodities at the time (average over 1 month) estimated baseline PoE range = sum of 2 and 3 minimum/maximum/average (average over 1 month).

For sub oceans we only need to calculate the PoE cost of the commodities used to build it (3).

For the min/max we could use values a fixed number of σ from the mean. There are some really crazy commod (sell) prices out there so exclude those.

Perhaps somehow we can incorporate labour into the model too (or at least mention that it was deemed negligible). This would give some concrete averages. However that is a lot of assumptions (do we have any/enough dub/commod data points?) and a day of someone wading through figures with a calculator. Another option might be to average some of Wrs1864b's figures (I assume they were software-captured snapshots?) and list those.

Unless we can find a way of quantifying 'pirateyness', the "piratey ships cost less" idea is pure speculation and should not be on the page. --Therobotdude 04:57, 4 June 2015 (PDT)

Pirateness is easy to quantify: was it in the game before the ship came out? If not, has it been added to the game since the ship came out? Last but not least, does it have anything to do with pirates having an adventure? Here's a few examples on how that works out...

Jungle sloop (monkeys on an uncharted island theme). Pirateness: 3 of 3. Yes, we had monkeys and uncharted islands and they were commonplace in other places such as the foraging puzzle. This theme has continued to be in-use. Pirates encounter monkies and jungle islands all the time on adventures, so it fits the theme.

Verdant Baghlah (Watership Down/intelligent bunnies theme). Pirateness: 0 of 3. No, we did not have intelligent bunnies or idols that turn you into a rabbit prior to this boat. This has not been added to the game elsewhere since the ship came out. Pirates in stories and movies seldom encounter intelligent rabbits, never mind turning into one, and not even Watership Down itself had pirate bunnies. Sometimes they get turned into animals, maybe, but it hasn't been seen elsewhere in the game.

Back to the prices!

Doubloon prices would be nice, that's for sure. I don't think we need to have a Doubloon to Poe count based on time as that is a whole other kettle of fish that will take a lot more to compile as there are way more Doubloon sellers out there than shipyards. If someone wants to do that on their own, they can, but I don't think it's required for the prices to still be interesting to doubloon players.

I'm not sure if anyone has the exact work hours and material costs anymore... if they do, that's great! If not, then just an averaged price list is good in my book as prices should have labor, materials, and time taken into account on average.

Have you ever read the ship page? All the recipes, including material costs and labor hours, are listed there. Additionally, they are listed on each ship page, e.g. Jungle class sloop. Jlh0605 ^(t/c) 03:53, 6 June 2015 (PDT)

If we can't find information on non-Enlgish oceans or only seem to find the PoE prices, a notice on the wiki page would be enough. Even incomplete information is a starting point for those trying to price their ships.

We now have a thread to try to collect ship prices. Bring your info and tell your friends!

-Lamoxlamae 19:03, 4 June 2015 (PDT)