Talk:Event E2/Proposal Eclipsen

Mentor Questions
'''Okay. I would like to change it so that Sake and Terra are both non-sinking. Then for Lima, it would be sinking. The only problem with this is that Lima and Sake are both owned by the same flag, and I would require 2 alt flags in order for it to be sinking on one and non-sinking on another. It would still be 3k to enter, but you could enter as many times as you want, so long as you start from Sake. I will have a chart set up outlining all the ships, to make sure that no one uses duplicate ships for the event. Also, will it be a familiar event? (The event is still starting on Sake)'''

Lordkalvan replies: I'm thinking about the sinking/non-sinking part. On Midnight, a sinking event blockade will have a lot of crashers going fer hooks etc - and some contestants will decide not to risk their only sloop. About the familiar, well that's up to the OM but familiars are almost never awarded to a team of any kind, and yer contestants are running sloops full of people. (so odds are, no familiar)

Crystal replies: Why have you changed it here to starting at Lima? What difference does it make?

Other things: Deal '''Meh. We'll get some more opinions on sinking/non-sinking. This way there is a 1/4 chance that they will lose a sloop forever compared to before.''' Well it's a good thing Imperial Margerine isn't at war with anyone :P '''You're gonna have to trust me on this. I have a bunch of stuff planned so people aren't sneaky.''' Sounds good. '''Hey! Every event needs some luck involved. You need alot of coordination with this. Do you take the chance of being thrown ocean side or dock side? Or do you wait for the round to start?'''
 * I agree with Lordkalvan that this is absolutely not a familiar event.
 * I'm not sure that I see the important of sinking vs non-sinking. If it's sinking anywhere, you need to be sure that your prizes are going to be worth the sacrifice of a sloop, but other than that, it shouldn't make much difference to the mechanism.
 * What happens if any ships are from flags that are at war with any of the island-owning flags? e.g. at Terra. If any contestant is in a flag at war with Imperial Margarine (or whoever owns it) they won't be able to port at the island, and therefore won't be able to transfer a cannonball to you. How will you deal with that?
 * It would be underhand and sneaky, but it would be entirely possible for a contestant to have two identically-named ships and use one starting further round the course to cheat. You mention having a chart set up, but I'm not sure what you mean there. I strongly suggest that you transfer a cannonball or something to each ship at the start of the race, so that you can ensure at the end that it's the same ship that started the course, then went through Terra, then reached Lima. To do this you would need to be able to read the vessel records, which would mean either yourself or an alt being Officered in their crew to verify the vessel records. You do, at least, only need to do this for the ships finishing in the prize positions!
 * If only one ship finishes, just give them the top prize. If you feel bad, give them one extra prize. If you feel bad because you received other prizes in sponsorship, get prior agreement from sponsors that any remaining prizes will be offered in a series of free tournaments open to all.
 * How will you deal with people trying to sail through blockades when a new round starts? I doubt that people will all get through the three blockades in a single round, so chances are they will be trying to sail through a blockade close to the end of a round at one point or another. At the start of a new round, all ships are kicked off the board, islandside or oceanside. How will you deal with this? How will you deal with the difficulty that some ships could be kicked islandside and some oceanside, and depending on their point in the race this could either substantially advantage them or substantially disadvantage them?

--Crystal 17:11, 13 February 2006 (PST)

Sorry, I remembered a couple more things! '''The problem is, Sakejima and Lima both unblockadeable, even though they are colonised. This would also bring up the problem of war and porting. I guess the deed for the ship would have to be traded to a flag without the war declaration on IM.''' I'll make sure that Imperial Margerine pays back the war chest. Good point. '''Anything goes. This is gonna be alot of luck and alot of skill. A test of everything.'''
 * Don't expect to be able to get alt flags to drop the war chest on the participating islands. Unless they've changed the rules since I ran an event blockade in October, they can't/won't circumvent the fame requirements. I had to find a player flag willing to declare war and drop a chest on the island to trigger the blockade. The OMs were flexible with timing of the blockade window for me, but not the fame of the flag dropping the chest.
 * The war chests. With any luck, you should be able to get OM help with the cost of the war chests - they should be able to partially (at least) refund you for the cost of the chest. However, if the defending island wins the blockade, a portion of the chest will go to them. It probably wouldn't go down too well if the OMs paid the chest and the defending flags then profited from the event. Perhaps you could negotiate with the defending flags that the tribute received is returned, or something.
 * You need to clear it with OMs that the islands cannot transfer ownership in that blockade, even if another flag drops a chest themselves, and even if a contender apparently wins the blockade. They have done this previously, so it shouldn't be a problem, but it should be made clear in the event description. :)
 * Brigands are probably unavoidable. PvP?

--Crystal 17:43, 13 February 2006 (PST)

The thing which made me ask about Lima was your comment in the first paragraph saying "you could enter as many times as you want, so long as you start from Lima". What did you mean by that if it wasn't about starting the race at Lima? --Crystal 00:13, 14 February 2006 (PST)


 * Sakejima and Lima are unblockadeable *usually* but with negotiation for an event blockade, blockades can be held. Jorvik was unblockadeable when we blockaded it for an event. The point I was making was that an alt flag won't be allowed to drop a war chest, regardless of whether it's an OM doing it or not. The flag fame has to be high enough to drop the chest. These were the rules given to me in October - it's possible that they've changed, but you certainly need to check it!


 * Duplicate ships. I spent a while thinking about this both before I posted the comment, and since, and I can think of ways to cheat any in-game mechanism for checking where I am, short of you having a look-out at every single league point, island and blockade on the route. Even then, can you really tell me that you will be able to tell if I port one ship at Terra full of damage and immediately jump onto another which is clear of damage? You can tell remotely if I switch deeds with someone in a different crew for a duplicate named ship? Making a mark in the vessel records at each stage (start, Terra, Prolix, Lima if you like) ensures that the same ship was used throughout and also gives you a handy timestamp, especially if you use the starting cannonball as their signal to go! Given that there is a perfectly straightforward solution which guarantees compliance, can you see why I would prefer that to trusting in an undisclosed "bunch of stuff"?
 * I think perhaps this could be solved with /vwho. Force them to specify which crew's vessel of that name they're using at the start, and verify at each point that they're still using the same crew's vessel of that name. Don't allow them to use any boat where they have two of the same name (e.g. The Good and Evil Touchy Hammerheads) in the same crew. I think the location movement of similarly named ships on /vwho would make it fairly obvious if someone was trying to circumvent this. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 05:46, 14 February 2006 (PST)
 * A small point but remember that the name of the ship that the ball is to be transferred to is irrelevant if they're not in your crew. They need a pirate name, not a ship name.


 * I'm glad that you've got Imperial Margarine's assurance that they won't declare war on anyone at all in the next month and a bit, no matter what provocation there is. That's very good of them. ;) In simpler terms, it's not relevant that they're not at war with anyone TODAY. You need, in your event instructions, to deal with the possibility that they could be at war with someone, so that entrants from that flag are not presented with an obstacle that they hadn't thought of. Perhaps you could have an alternative for people in warring flags that they could sit in edge square of the islandside safety zone and send a tell to a named pirate who can see the board, and get acknolwedgement that they've been seen? They could then simply move off onto the board again. Deed switching is something of an irritation, particularly if you have to job someone extra onto the ship in order to do it.


 * Time. You've suggested that participant time would be 45 mins - 1h30mins. I think it might well take most of 40 minutes just to get across the 4 boards, let alone the trips between islands, but I'd be interested in others' opinions on this. My instinct is that you'd be better off suggested 2 hours as a timeframe that participants should expect to be involved for. Of course, some will finish way before that, but it's better for them to use less time than they expect than more.


 * Prizes. Looking again at your suggested prizes, they don't really seem appropriate team prizes. Are you suggesting that every team member gets an OM doll or a ribbon? Or just the Captain? If the former, I think it's too much. If the latter, which is what it looks like, it's too unfair on the rest of the team. I could see you getting agreement for a ribbon trinket for every winning team member - that should be fine. OM dolls are probably not a good choice. As I understand it, each OM is uniquely responsible for how their own OM dolls are distributed, and would not be obliged to provide a doll as a prize for this event if that's not how they choose to distribute them. So, I guess I'm saying that an individual ribbon for each winning member and some poe would be a fairer first prize, maybe something that can be shared for second (poe again?) and third. You have a war brig in there, which can be used, but is difficult to share out if the team is made up from more than one crew. I like that there's a consolation prize for anyone completing the course - at least they'll get enough to cover their rum and shot used during the course!

--Crystal 03:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)
 * Finally, assuming that you are able to get the war chest refunded, you really don't need the entry fee, do you? The removal of the entry fee would encourage more participation.

Oops, looks like Crystal got to some of these issues first... --Artemis 12:17, 14 February 2006 (PST)
 * familiar - Not as is, I think it's going to be more successful as a group non-familiar event anyway!
 * I'd go with Non-sinking, to be honest, more people are likely to show up if they don't have to worry about losing their ships. Sure sinking could be fun, but unless there is a familiar up for grabs you probably don't need to add the sinking to chase anyone off.
 * Have them sell to a shoppe or stall on the island to confirm that they actually got there, it's far easier than having someone sitting and waiting at each island. To verify the logs they can also hand you the deed for you to check, that would seem to be a reasonable restriction to entry so that logs can be easily verified.
 * Are there any limits on getting friends to help sink their competition? Or is this a free for all?  (not that there would be any effective means of stopping someone from interfering, but it's possible someone could take out their nice WF to start shooting some contestants up and slowing them down.
 * No OM dolls without their approval, for this I think it best to just not have one rather than worrying about it.
 * arguments could be made to give prizes to those who get close, but that'll be very difficult to watch, probably better not to worry about that.
 * Fame - You'll need a flag with the right fame to drop, it's too much of a hassle to get around it, we can certainly make those islands available for the event, though. Warchests can be refunded, any poe won from the check should be used for prizes or returned to the OM's.
 * Time - This'll definitely take more than 40 minutes... Timing will be especially crucial here because you have a limited time when the blockade boards will be open.
 * Prizes: I agree you could do a bit better on the prize front.

You have made several edits to your event page - some I agree with, others not, but that's ok. However, one change that can't stay is that you have added, under OM assistance, "Making sure lower fame flag can blockade Lima/Terra/Sake." As I suggested before, and as Artemis confirmed, this is NOT possible. The flag blockading those islands MUST have high enough fame to be able to drop a war chest on them. Alt flags can't do it, OMs can't do it. You have to find a player flag of suitable fame that is willing to declare war, and drop a chest on, those islands. --Crystal 14:32, 14 February 2006 (PST)

'''Oops! Thanks for clarifying that. I was a little confused. I will change it immediatly.'''

'''#1: I changed it so ships couldn't re-enter. Any comment on this? '''


 * I think that's reasonable. It doesn't seem likely that someone who gets part way and then restarts is going to win the race, and if you let people re-enter, they could be there all day. --Crystal 02:24, 21 February 2006 (PST)

I agree with Crystal. If they need to restart as their ship was effectively sunk then they are out of the running for a prize anyway. Once you have a list of participants registered with their sloop you shouldn't need to alter it on the fly once the event has begun. --Hawkings 10:24am, 21 February 2006 (PST)

'''#2: Maybe I should make this a solo sloop race. Since it isn't sinking, people would be fine with going in by themselves. But to my knowledge there's no way to keep track of people are really by themselves, unless I constantly do /vwho. Please respond to this and post any other comments/questions/suggestions.'''
 * Lordkalvan says: If ye are in the same area as the ships (like on the same blockade board) then just do /who. This shows the names of all the ships in the area, who's bnavving, and how many are aboard (without ye having to count).  Making it solo might help judging a bit. --Tcarr 07:03, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Making it solo cuts down the participants somewhat, and will make the blockades much more difficult to get through. I don't feel really strongly about it, but I think I prefer that people can have as many as they like. You don't have to check numbers all the time then. --Crystal 08:53, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Checking with /vwho isn't hard with a couple of assistants. I ran a solo event and had no trouble checking. Incidentally no one even tried to get extra help on their ship. Allowing captains to get help cuts down on the rules and the overhead. If you make it clear that only the Captain is getting prizes and that they are responsible for paying thier mates if they wish just adds an extra dimension to the contest. I think either way will work just fine. --Hawkings 10:24am, 21 February 2006 (PST

'''#3: Someone suggested to give ribbons to all of the ships. I was thinking a Gold/Navy one for 1st, Grey/Navy for 2nd, and Brown/Navy for 3rd. (Like Gold, Silver, and Bronze olympic medals.'''
 * I've previously had a "no black or gold" repsonse about trinkets. So think yellow rather than gold for 1st. So does this mean up to 21 ribbons (up to 7 per ship)? I think I preferred the idea of ribbons just for the people on the winning ship, and I thought blue/aqua sounded pretty! --Crystal 02:24, 21 February 2006 (PST)

That many trinkets would be cool to give away but it is a lot to ask of the OMs. You might consider a ribbon for the OiC and matching Stripy Outfits for all the mates. You could fund the outfits easily enough and have 7 sets ready to go of each of three colors. Who knows though maybe Artimis would be willing to go with up to 21. --Hawkings 10:24am, 21 February 2006 (PST

'''#4: Another idea posted to keep track of ships; have them sell 1 unit of cannonballs to Lima, Terra, Prolix, and Sakejima. That way we only need to give people jobs. Less ships to keep track of, and it helps get rid of people using the same ships. All I need is for the first ship to get there to job me aboard, and I can check the vessel records to see if they went to all the islands. What do you think?'''
 * Lordkalvan says: Jobbers can't see vessel records. Better to have one specified judge standing on a ship on each of the islands, and the ships transfer one unit of (anything really) to the judge by piratename.  Changing ship deeds is a pain, and so is crewing all the contestants into the same crew as the judge (or having the judge crewed to each contestant's crew). --Tcarr 07:03, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Aye. I was trying to avoid people swapping ships. The example I gave above was that someone could swap ship deeds for a duplicate name half-way through and therefore change from a damaged ship to a whole one. However, checking vessel records requires either being in the same crew, or the judge getting officered, and for non-autocratic crews, that's a bit of a headache. I still think there's no other way to verify that it's the identical ship used all the way through, but maybe it's just a risk that has to be taken! --Crystal 08:53, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Instead, you could just specify what shoppes they need to sell cannonballs to. There's only three islands so you should be able to find stalls or shoppes which you can personally check. --Artemis 09:14, 19 February 2006 (PST)

Unless they're a manager, they can't send to a shoppe, only to by name to a pirate. Whether that pirate stands in a shoppe or on a ship doesn't really make a difference. Either way, it doesn't solve my problem, but if people are really going to be that dishonest, it's a sad old world. --Crystal 02:24, 21 February 2006 (PST)

There is a possible solution to this. If the judges have a stall or shoppe at any of the islands you could use this to check records. Also being the manager of the same would also work here. The best possible solution would be to sell to the palace of each item. Not sure if a judge could be made a manager of the Palace of each item or not but the Real Estate Agents are a real possiblility and you could use Stone as the commodity to buy or sell to the agent. Since two of the islands are ringer controled getting a judge a temporary manager position at each Building shouldn't be too are at those and possible you could make arrangements with the governors of the other islands. --Hawkings 10:24am, 21 February 2006 (PST)

Have you now found a flag willing to declare war and drop the war chests? --Crystal 02:26, 21 February 2006 (PST)

'''Yes. Indestructible Fury will be helping me.'''