Talk:Event E2/Proposal B licker

re: Similiar events
While it's not exact, it sounds a bit like the evil offspring of Midnight Piratical Pictorial Puzzlement (http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=29600) and RM 2-Yr Event - The Search for Ironfisted (http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=29963). Which isn't a bad thing, please note, but just something to keep in mind. --Shikyo

I haven't even described the event yet. :-) --Bootlicker

Ok, the full event description is now up. I'm aware of the two events you've described (and participated in both), but I believe my event is quite different from either of them. --Bootlicker

I was going off of "A cryptographic contest where pirates exchange encrypted clues, solve the cryptogram, find the secret buildings, and figure out where to go on the next ocean, eventually visiting all 4 oceans." bit when I pointed out that riddles sending people searching across oceans isn't unprecidented.

Your event idea sounds interesting, but it's way too complicated in both planning and execution for my tastes. --Shikyo

Solvers
Cryptogram solvers are pretty common as they're generally pretty easily brute forced. How does that effect your event idea? --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 16:57, 24 January 2006 (PST)

I hadn't thought of that, but I don't think it has a huge impact. It might lessen the value of the hint-type clues. Most of the encoded clues will be one or two words, which are difficult for a solver to deal with. A player still needs to gather several clues to be able to solve the cryptogram. And even after solving the cryptogram, they need to gather enough clues to find enough buildings to figure out where to go on the next ocean. --Bootlicker

There's probably some programs out there for doing just that, but you could probably get around it (and make things a little more interesting) by adding a twist to the Cryptograms, maybe adding in numbers or making it case sensitive. You could even have multiple symbols mean the same thing, what if both R and z were both e? Or the opposite, what if e could be either w or o? --Artemis 11:29, 13 February 2006 (PST)

I know a couple of people who do this semi-professionally. I could find out whether they're willing to playtest your clues rather than participate in the event. That way you may get an idea of how difficult your encryptions are. Would that be useful? --Crystal 16:05, 13 February 2006 (PST)

Yes! See section below on Pre-event Testing --Bootlicker 16:29, 13 February 2006 (PST)

Cheating
It would be very easy to have one person that is really good at solving Cryptograms (that wins or places at the top) give the winning location to friends would it not? Shandra (Taco)

Yeah, I'm not sure how strict I want to be about this. On the one hand, cooperation between players is encouraged, but on the other hand, I don't want the winner to just give away the answer. I should add this to the workshop component. --Bootlicker

Prizes
You might want to rethink the first place prize; players who predominantly play the subscription oceans certainly might participate in a cross-ocean event, but then would have little use for doubloons. Otherwise, this sounds tough to run but probably fun to participate in. --Elsquido 00:13, 29 January 2006 (PST)


 * Doubscription. --VPeric

VPeric is correct. 42 doubloons can be used to pay for a one month's subscription. --Bootlicker

Where are all the delicious trinkets?! --Artemis 11:35, 13 February 2006 (PST)

Heh, are you offering to provide trinkets for prizes? If so, I'll gladly accept them. My goal was to be as self-sufficient as possible when planning this event, but I won't turn down donations that are offered to me. :-D --Bootlicker 12:32, 13 February 2006 (PST)

I've added a signet ring for 1st place and fancy ribbons for 2nd and 3rd place. --Bootlicker 16:12, 14 February 2006 (PST)

Suggestion
Just a suggestion. It might be simpler to enforce, and to explain to participants, to have to accept initial challenges and have the right to refuse all others, instead of what you have explained. For example, I challenge B_Licker to an SF match for a clue. B_Licker must accept the challenge. Win or lose, the next time I challenge B_Licker to an SF match, they have the right to refuse. Period. Now, I may change and challenge B_Licker to a drinking match next, and you'd have to accept. However after that, win or lose, you'd no longer have to accept any drinking challenges from me. What do you think?--Muroni 06:33, 8 February 2006 (PST)

I'm not sure what this would accomplish. The reason for rejecting the first request is so that someone who's terrible at SF or drinking isn't forced into constantly giving away their clues with nothing in return. Since everyone starts out with only one clue, I didn't envision someone being challenged by the same person many times. Perhaps this rule would be more clear: You may only challenge the same person a total of 3 times, once at SF, once at drinking, and once at trading. And that person may reject only one of your challenges. -- Bootlicker

I should also add a rule that says you must respond to a challenge within 30 secs with accept, reject, or "I'm busy with someone else, please come back later". This is to prevent people from stalling when they get a request they don't like but are forced to accept. -- Bootlicker

There are some good reasons to force a challenge, especially if someone is simply sitting in the corner and sitting on his/her clue (only giving it out to his friends or his main alt.) What if you can force a challenge on someone, but they get to choose the method? You may run into some problems with coordinating that, but you should consider having some way to force a challenge to keep clues from being hoarded. --Artemis 11:35, 13 February 2006 (PST)

I've modified the trading rules. Hopefully the new rules are clearer but still promote the kind of player interaction that I'm aiming for. -- Bootlicker 16:14, 14 February 2006 (PST)

New Ocean Lag
Neat idea, if rather complex. My one concern is that it seems kind of awkward as a "who gets to the end first" race, since no one can actually get ahead of the pack and still have people to trade clues with. Lets say I was the first person to decipher the clues and make it to Ocean #2. I get my Player clue, and then I basically have to wait until more people show up that I can trade clues with, correct? So I lose my lead by the very nature of the competition. Unless there is a lot of duplication of clues, won't each stage (Ocean) have to wait until most of the group has caught up before anyone is likely to be able to move on? There is something to be said for an event that anyone could win right up to the very end, I guess. But I suggest that a small prize be granted to the first person to make it to each new Ocean, so they get something for that accomplishment. --BlackBeth 12:58, 10 February 2006 (PST)

You're absolutely right, which is why I think it'll be an interesting contest. The first person to figure out the next ocean will have to decide whether to move on or whether they should try to help other people advance so that they have someone to trade clues with. But if they help too many people, they may lose their edge. It's all part of the strategy. I'm definitely going to plan for there to be fewer clues on the later oceans, because some people will fall behind. I do like the idea of awarding prizes for advancing to the next ocean. I'll have to think of something appropriate. -- Bootlicker

Judging
My absolute inability to solve Cryptograms certainly prevents me from being a contestant in your event, but if you need a volunteer, get with me when you know your timeline - would love to help if the timing works. Shandra (Taco)

Mentor Questions
What do you think about the rule change I suggested above in response to Muroni's comment? Is it clearer than what I describe in the article? My only concern with the modified rule is that it only allows for 1 trade request, which I don't really like. What I really want is a limit of 1 SF challenge, 1 drinking challenge, and unlimited trade requests until someone rejects a trade request. But I'm not sure how to state this clearly. Perhaps something like this: "You may only challenge the same person once to a swordfight and once to a drinking match, and they have the right to refuse only one of your challenges. You may also trade clues with the same person as many times as you like, until that person rejects your trade request." Also, any thoughts on how to prevent the winner from just giving the answer to all their friends? -- Bootlicker

Unfortunately the only way I've found to prevent the winner from helping all his friends to second and third place is to either make them prove who they got the clues from (way too tedious and not fun) or only give out one prize. Another way to reduce (but not eliminate) that issue would be to allow them to work in groups so it's clear from the outset that they should only be sharing within a few people. I'm not sure that'll solve your problem, though, so much as it'll just reduce it a bit. --Artemis 11:39, 13 February 2006 (PST)

Pre-event testing (Volunteers needed)
I will need some volunteers to help me test the clues before the event. Basically, I will give each volunteer a handful of clues and let them see if they can solve the crytogram. I want to ensure that  it is impossible to solve the cryptogram with only a few clues. Volunteers will not be allowed to participate in the event since you get to see the clues early. If you're interested in helping me out with this, send a PM to B_licker on the YPP forums. -- Bootlicker

This semester I'm teaching a college level course in Cryptography. I'd be happy to offer me students a bit of extra credit fer attempting to solve yer cryptograms. I assume that ye don't want to have any nasty cryptosystems such as Vigenere, Playfair, or worse - just a straight substitution cipher. The cryptosystem I lectured on today is no longer used, because it can be cracked by a mere 100 desktops working fer a few hours...... --Tcarr 20:22, 13 February 2006 (PST)

Thoughts
Just a few thoughts I came up with as I read it over, I've likely covered a few up above already and some you answered as I read further.

What if they don't all fit on a GF? (Wishful thinking, but worth having a backup plan for!)

What if someone doesn't work to get a new clue? What if they discounect/logoff/idle? What if they're just an alt so someone can get multiple clues for free? Can someone be forced to engage in a contest or trade if they don't want to with a certain person? What about making sure there are multiples of each clue out, at least two each, to lower the chances of that happening?

Confirming clues - I can't help but wonder if there's an easier way of doing this than by word of mouth, the judges are likely to get spammed quite a bit if everyone is double checking. What I'm wondering is if there's an easier way, either with inscribed trinkets or via. web or wiki pages.

Stage 2 - Again I have a concern about spamming the game master once players move on to the next stage, what if you just had the next stage printed out already in the shoppes with bogus keys/clues in the wrong places?

Simplifying the clues also would mean you need less volunteers, which would be a good thing!

I'm not sure you actually need to have this across oceans, unless you have a particular reason for wanting to? You could just move archipelagos, changing oceans just seems like it might get confusing, and long! Perhaps I'm overestimating the timing here, though.

A possible problem: Once you have enough people leaving the original GF you may end up with some people who literally can't solve it with the remaining clues, how will you be able to tell this has happened and what are your plans when you do run into it?

OM Assistance: A borrowed GF on each ocean should be pretty easy to manage for any oceans where you can't find someone to lend you one.

Response to Artemis' comments: Using alts to get extra clues won't help a whole lot since I plan to make the clues difficult enough to require someone to gather many clues to make any progress. If someone drops out of the contest, I'll just announce their clue to everyone. There is a rule (see above) that says a person can be challenged twice and must accept at least one of them. I'm thinking of bumping up the numbers for that. And if all else fails, I can resort to the "good sportsmanship" rule.

I really like the idea of having a web page for clue confirmation. I can probably put together a simple form that will let people type in the clue they receive and confirm that it's accurate. At the same time, it can also record which players have received which clues, and I can use this information to see if someone really solved the puzzle or was just handed the solution.

Having clues in the building news is a good idea, but it would require me to find every building owner and get them to change their news for me. This seems like a logistical nightmare.

This event doesn't need to be across oceans, but I thought it would be an interesting twist. I figured a cross-ocean event would be unique, include more players, and improve my chances of making the shortlist. ;-)

I hadn't considered what would happen at the tail end when a large number of people have moved on to the next ocean. I guess what I can do is when someone moves on, I can announce their clue to the rest after a 10 minute delay or something.

Wow, lots to think about. Thanks for the feedback. I definitely need to think about the web page idea. Now that my other event is over, I can give this event more attention and work out all the details. --Bootlicker 12:32, 13 February 2006 (PST)

The website idea is brilliant. It greatly simplifies how the event will be run, dropping the number of volunteers required to only 1 or 2 per ocean. It also provides records which can be used if it looks like someone got the answer without solving the puzzles. I already have the basic structure of the website planned out and will be preparing sample pages shortly. -- Bootlicker 16:17, 14 February 2006 (PST)

--Artemis 09:11, 19 February 2006 (PST)
 * To be fair if someone gathers enough clues, chances are they've had a lot of interactions with other people and their clue is already widely known, still worth considering, the 10 minute idea might discourage people from trying to keep one clue secret from everyone else, though.
 * Glad to hear you've figured out a way to do it on the website and cut out some of the help you'll be needing!

Event Announcement, Scheduling, OM Assistance, Website Assistance, Player Feedback
I'm planning on running this event on March 3, which is in about a week and a half. The proposed event announcement is below. I plan on posting this in a couple days, so if you have any changes to recommend, let me know ASAP. Also, I need to know which OM I will be dealing with to get the grand frigates to host the event and the event prize trinkets. Finally, I'd like to arrange to have a backup website in case mine goes down during the event. If anyone can provide me with a temporary web host that supports Perl and MySQL, please let me know. I'll need permission to upload files, create databases, and populate data tables in order to create the necessary website infrastructure. One more thing, do I need to have some sort of player feedback for my event for E2 purposes? If so, how should I incorporate this into the event? --Bootlicker 23:54, 20 February 2006 (PST)

Proposed Event Announcement
Title: [All oceans]Four-Ocean Crypto Hunt! Fri, March 3, 6 PM PST

[size=1][color=red]This is a shortlisted E2 entry.[/color][/size]

Attention cryptoquiz fans! On March 3, starting at 6 PM PST, I will be hosting a cryptographic treasure hunt spanning all four production oceans! But what's that you say? You don't know what a cryptographic treasure hunt is? Well then let me explain!

[size=3][b]Short explanation:[/b][/size] Players will challenge or trade with other players to collect a set of encrypted clues. An example of a clue is: [b]Clue #2: (1C) myt8930l 29r4[/b]. They must decode the clues and figure out which buildings the clues refer to. They must visit the buildings and receive additional clues which will tell them what islands to visit on the next ocean. The first person to make there way across all 4 oceans to the final location wins 42 doubloons or a month's subscription to YPP!

[size=3][b]Long explanation:[/b][/size] [b]Event Start[/b]: Starting on Midnight Ocean, players will be jobbed aboard a grand frigate. They must also create an account (username and password) on the [url=http://cryptohunt.ypp-trader.c-f-h.com/crypto_login.html]event website[/url]. At the start of the contest, each player will be given a clue (referred to as a player clue) via the website. Some clues will be encrypted words like: "SDFHG TERTSD", while other clues will be hints on how to decode the cryptogram, like "S=e". The player's task is to collect as many clues as they can from other players in order to get enough information to decode the cryptogram.

[b]Trading clues[/b]: While aboard the grand frigate, a player may exchange clues with others on the frigate. A player can trade clues with another player by initiating a trade request. In this case, they simply exchange one clue for one clue. Two players may trade clues with each other as many times as they like until one person chooses to reject the trade request.

A player may also try to steal one clue from another player by beating them in a swordfight or drinking game and not have to give away one of their own. But they risk giving up one of their clues with nothing in return if they lose. A player may challenge the same person up to 4 times: twice at swordfighting and twice at drinking, and the challenged player has the right to refuse any two of those challenges. The four challenges do not have to happen all at once.

To get a clue from someone, a player simply tells them the number of the clue they want, and that person [b]must[/b] return the one closest to the one asked for. If the clue they receive is one they already have, they may [b]not[/b] request a different one. When a player receives a clue from someone, they must confirm it using the website to make sure no one is being dishonest. The website will also keep track of which clues the player has collected during the event.

A player may not ignore someone's challenge or trade request while aboard the grand frigate. They must respond within 30 secs or, if they're already busy with another player, ask for extra time. If a player does not wish to be disturbed while working on clues, they should disembark from the frigate.

[b]Solving the cryptogram[/b]: Once a player has collected enough information to decipher the cryptogram, the clues will direct them to 12 different buildings on 3 islands on Midnight. All 3 islands will be in the same archipelago as the grand frigate, so no whisking is required. The player must visit each of the buildings and go to the website to answer a question about that building. If they answer the question correctly, they will then receive another encrypted clue (referred to as a building clue). Building clues will use the same cipher as the player clues. Collect all the building clues to determine which 3 islands on [b]Cobalt Ocean[/b] to visit. If the player is not in the correct building, they will receive a dummy clue to throw them off the trail. Players may also exchange building clues aboard the grand frigate in the same manner that they exchange player clues.

[b]Moving on to the next oceans[/b]: Once a player thinks they know which islands on Cobalt to visit, they must visit the website and check their answer. They have 3 chances to enter the correct islands or they will be kicked out of the contest. Once they enter the correct islands, they will be given a new player clue and the name of the Cobalt game master. They must log onto Cobalt and send a tell to the Cobalt game master to be jobbed aboard the grand frigate. On Cobalt, the player will exchange player clues in the same manner as on Midnight. The trading and challenge limits also reset when a player switches oceans, so if they challenged someone 4 times on Midnight, they may challenge that person 4 more times on Cobalt. The player clues and building clues on Cobalt will use a different cipher than the ones on Midnight. Solve the player clues on Cobalt, discover the 12 buildings on Cobalt, solve the building clues, and discover the 3 islands on Viridian. Solve the player clues on Viridian, discover the 8 buildings on Viridian, solve the building clues, and discover the 2 islands on Sage. Solve the player clues on Sage, discover the 6 buildings on Sage, solve the building clues, and discover the final secret location [u]which may be on any island on any ocean[/u].

[b]Miscellaneous[/b]: SF and drinking challenges are free on Fridays, so no subscriptions or parlor badges will be required. There is a "good sportsmanship" rule where players who appear to be lying about clues, refusing clue exchanges, or otherwise being a barrelstopper will be planked from the contest at the discretion of the game master. In this circumstance, their player clue will be announced to everyone over event crew chat. Ten minutes after a player advances to the next ocean, their old player clue will be announced to everyone else who has not yet advanced so the others don't get stuck without clues. Any player that logs off or disconnects without completing the current ocean will have their player clue announced to everyone after five minutes.

[size=3][b]Prizes:[/b][/size] The 1st person to find the final location will receive 42 doubloons (which may also be used to buy a one month subscription) and a signet ring. The 2nd and 3rd place people will receive a sloop on their ocean of choice and a fancy ribbon. Anyone finishing within 30 minutes of the 1st place winner will receive 1000 PoE on their ocean of choice and a ribbon.

The first person to reach Cobalt Ocean will receive a blue clam shell, the first to Viridian will receive an aqua clam shell, and the first to Sage will receive a lime clam shell.

[size=3][b]Entry info:[/b] [/size] To enter, simply ask Bootlicker for a job at the start of the event. Jobbing will begin at 6 PM sharp and will end after 20 minutes. In addition to being jobbed, you must also [url=http://cryptohunt.ypp-trader.c-f-h.com/crypto_login.html]register on the website[/url] in order to receive your clues. You may register early, but if you are not present at the start of the event, your web registration will be deleted. The event is expected to last approximately 3 hours from start to finish. The number of participants is limited to the capacity of a grand frigate. This event is open to pirates from all oceans, both subscribers and doublooners. The event is designed so that a freshly created alt may participate. Whisking will be provided and no subscriptions or badges will be necessary.

[size=3][b]Website:[/b][/size] The [url=http://cryptohunt.ypp-trader.c-f-h.com/crypto_login.html]event website[/url] is an integral part of the event. All clues will be given out via the website and all player progress will be tracked by the website. At this time, the website is open for testing. Simply visit [url=http://cryptohunt.ypp-trader.c-f-h.com/crypto_login.html]http://cryptohunt.ypp-trader.c-f-h.com/crypto_login.html[/url] to create an account and give it a spin. It is loaded with sample clues, not real clues, so website testers are still allowed to enter the event. If you encounter any errors, send a PM to [b]B_licker[/b] with the URL that caused in the error and the version of web browser you're using. Also, if you have any suggestions for improvement, send those to me as well.

If you have any questions or comments about this event, let me know. I hope to see all you cryptolovers on March 3!

Bootlicker First Mate of the Day Traders (Midnight) Senior Officer of the Fortune Cookies (Cobalt) Officer of the Swashbucklers of Sage

[img]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b43/jonhsu/looterati-brand-events.jpg[/img]

Comments on Announcement
--Crystal 02:14, 21 February 2006 (PST)
 * Overall looks very nice. The clam shells are a lovely touch. Is green not available for viridian?
 * I know it's picky, but surely you have a limit for participation equal to the full load of a grand frigate?
 * If you don't need to register, how are you going to know how many clues to give out? Or do you just have (for example) 50 clues, and then start giving out duplicates after that?
 * Will you be giving people time at the beginning of the event to register on the site? If not, I suggest that you recommend that if people are potentially interested in taking part, that they go and get their account set up beforehand, to save time.

--Bootlicker 09:50, 21 February 2006 (PST)
 * My web research told me that Viridian is actually closer to aqua than green.
 * Yes, I should cap the entrants to the capacity of a grand frig.
 * If I get more people than clues, then I will hand out duplicates.
 * Yes, people will be allowed to register on the site beforehand. The only complication is if people register on the site, but don't show up at the time of the event. I don't want to hand out clues to those people, which means I have to manually check the list of website-registered people against the list of jobbers at the start of the event. There will be a short period of time after jobbing and website registration ends and before the clues are handed out that I'll be dealing with these sorts of issues.

Final Prize and Support Information
As of right now, this is the list of prizes and support I have listed for the OM's to provide for you, if anything is not correct or complete you need to get in touch with me as soon as possible, I will not around the whole weekend! Please give the OM's plenty of time to respond to any requests and speak to them in advance if at all possible, for some of you that will be more important than others. I've given a copy of the standard OM schedule to Jacquilynne as well if I'm not available.


 * Prizes: Signet Ring, 2 Fancy ribbons, lime clam shell (Sage), Aqua clam shell (Viridian), Blue clam shell (Cobalt), undetermined number of ribbons. Since you'll have everyone together, if you can work with the OM onduty at the time for prizes, please do, otherwise follow the Post-Prizes instructions.  Clam shells can be given out beforehand with the pre-prizes instructions.
 * Support: Broadcast(s). Four GF's to be returned afterwards (already loaned out)
 * Post-Prizes: For all prizes being handled after the event you'll need to have the following information: Pirate, Ocean, Prize and any relevent inscriptions. Submit in a Petition and an Oceanmaster should either take care of it if they have time or leave it for someone to handle when they do.

--Artemis 10:14, 3 March 2006 (PST)