Talk:Event E2/Proposal jinonicolas

Who wins the familiar, the Bnaver of the brig? I'm not sure they'll be able to get 20 mates on board to help them win a familiar/war brig. I realize you have prizes in poe as well, which I would assume you'd hope the winner would divide as booty for his helpers, but I'm still concerned many would prefer to try leading their own ship for greater glory. --Muroni 06:43, 9 February 2006 (PST) How do you keep people from bringing in 'ringers' to their crew before the event begins? Looseweed

Familiars are almost never awarded to teams, just individuals. Tis up to the OM, but I don't think ye will get a familiar fer this event. --Tcarr 06:14, 12 February 2006 (PST)

I am intriqued by the nature of it being a true crew contest. I like the idea of pitting crews against each other. here are my thoughts on some things to consider for this event.
 * You might consider a longer route, 6 leagues, and see if the OMs could shut off brigands for the route or plan it using the Bake-Off method in Sea Battle over a defined number of turns.
 * Prize structure should be looked at. A Familiar is not appropriate as this is a team event.  I would look at prizes that could be truely crew assets or easily divided for everyone participating.
 * Consider having crews sign up for timeslots to run trials.
 * As far as tracking information, screenies and spreadsheets work wonders. --Hawkings

This contest is for, as I have stated, high-level pillagers/puzzlers. Meaning, you'll have to expect people to have Legendaries and Ultimates to consider competing. So a Captain would need the full support and respect of the "elite" in his crew to be able to participate. Whatever arrangement about the prizes they get is entirely up to them. I honestly doubt, though, that a Captain who wants to hog all the prizes would be able to rally up the best of the best of his crew...that's why the team should be made up of 20 members. This is a team effort, and not individual. We have the bake-offs for individual competition.

Using a familiar as a prize for this contest is somewhat a challenge for Captains and other high-ranking officers. Everyone wants a familiar, there's no doubt about that. Anyone would want one sitting on his/her shoulder, but would they be gracious enough to share? It's also a test of trust, unity, and loyalty for the crews. They could sell it, swap ownership from time to time, trade it for an island...it's up to them to arrange what to do with it. The very least I could do is ask the OMs to recognize the familiar as the crew's property...thus, if one runs off with it and leaves the crew, he will be reported to have stolen it and be forced to give it back.

By "ringers" you mean, Dread Ringers, correct? I seriously doubt the OMs would want to help other crews to prove they're the best.

Unfortunately, I have missed including the rule about which crews would be able to participate. The 1 League Stand was originally part of The Viridian Crewlympics that me and my crew have conjured up to, supposedly, enter in this contest. Sadly, we had to break it up and submit them individually. Anyway, I will request/push that only crews with at least Celebrated fame be allowed to enter this competition. This will block out "insta-crews" being formed and joining.

As the name suggests, the participants will only be given 1 league. Getting incredibles in the first league is hard, but doable. We are trying to find out which crew is the most skilled, giving more leagues to the participants would make the event too long and not that competitive since everyone has enough time to get increds.

Please, if you have any other questions, feel free to ask. :) - Arich, Captain of the Crew "Booty Snatchers"

Comments from Crystal
I think this is an interesting idea, but some questions and comments still.
 * I don't think this is a familiar event. Awarding a familiar for a large team event isn't likely to happen, and I doubt that the OMs will want to get involved with having a permanent "it's not fair, he won't share" support situation. What if the Captain leaves the crew? What if the crew merges? Too complicated.
 * The prizes generally seem to be at a pretty high level for an event like this. A renamed grand frigate is an expensive beast. Are you providing these prizes yourself? If so, well, fine! You haven't asked for any OM help with prizes, but the prizes seem on the high side to me if you are.
 * Pretty high level for an event like this? Please explain. - Arich

Sorry for the stream of comments. I hope some of them are useful. --Crystal 01:12, 14 February 2006 (PST)
 * One slight concern is that the first league score is so dependent on the starting boards of various puzzles. This isn't a flaw for the event - it makes it an exciting sudden death thing - but it does mean that you don't want too much hanging on the result in terms of prizes!
 * 20 people at a time seems quite a lot to me for a crew team. Saying that, I know I'm primarily from Midnight where crews aren't generally as big. However, might you consider running it for 10 people on a cutter instead to allow more people to take part? Perhaps you don't want more people taking part, for logistical reasons! Come to that, 10 people on a war brig would be pretty good! ;)
 * Brigands. If you want brigands "turned off", confirm with the OMs well in advance where your race will be. They might prefer to do it somewhere "out of the way" rather than on a major route. This will also ease the PvP situation.
 * PvP. This isn't going to get people banned, mate. :) The OMs would probably do broadcasts for you about PvP, though.
 * What does "full-time" mean for members? Does it just mean full members rather than jobbing pirates? If so, fine.
 * Why is "learning" worse than "booched" in terms of performance points? They're the same performance standing, so I'm not sure why you're penalising new players for doing badly compared to experienced players at the same performance.
 * Given the negative points for poor, booched and learning, could you tell me whether you will allow teams of fewer than 20 people to compete? A crew might well decide that they are better off with 15 strong players, rather than risking 20 players that might include a couple of negative points. Would you have any objection to teams entering undermanned?
 * Expanding that question, if you say that you need 20 people, what will you do if someone doesn't puzzle during the league? They won't appear on the duty report, so have no points assigned. Again, if undermanned is ok, then this shouldn't matter.
 * Logistically, having teams that are intercepted go back to port and reset or change ships will add to the time schedule quite significantly. How many event judges will you have?
 * Let's try the following set up. If you have several players volunteering to help you (can be any crew). Your volunteers are jobbed into your crew at the beginning. The CO of each contesting team is jobbed into your crew. Contestants must have their own ships available at the starting island. At the beginning of the event, you announce on crew chat which teams are assigned which judges, and the judges are jobbed on to the relevant ship and can start in their own time. The judge will need to take a station (but not puzzle!) in order to see the duty report at the end of the league. Once the duty report is captured, the judge can be jobbed back into your crew, store the information, and be assigned to the next contestant. The first contestant meanwhile will be sailing back to port themselves. Would that work?
 * I don't see any need for special-named alts to help with this. These events always run perfectly well with normal players as judges.
 * The OMs will be able to help provide contestants with charts if it's a particularly out-of-the-way route that has to be used.
 * It doesn't actually say, but I assume the final is a repeat of the same event?
 * You need to make sure you have lots of players so that you get through teams quickly. The fact that teams have to hang around for a couple of hours to find out whether they're in the final or not could be a bit of a problem. Will you insist on the *same* 20 people being in the crew for the final as were in the qualification round? Again, could be a problem in terms of people's availability.

--

Answers from jinonicolas
1. Everybody seems to disagree that this isn't a familiar event. That being said, just take a look at the event that hosts these contests. Being able to execute your entry would need people to help you. The concept might be yours alone, but it will still end up as a team effort. Although, E2 still rewards a familiar in the end. The crew who wins the familiar will be responsible as to how they will share it. Trust, unity, and loyalty is part of being one of the best crews in the ocean. ;)
 * Please give some credence to what 'everybody' thinks. The sort of things you describe are exactly the sorts of things that the OMs do not want to get involved with when awarding a familiar. I'm sure Artemis will be by to comment in the near future, but in the mean time, please don't assume you will get a familiar, because my experience tells me that it's extremely unlikely. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 11:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)
 * I'm not assuming, simply hoping. What do the OMs do not want to get involved? I understand the familiar being crew property is hard to ask for, but what else? - Arich

2. I wish to strictly enforce that 20 people per team should be required of crews. Yes, it's a high number, but this contest is about which crew is the most skilled, and I do not believe that 10 people can prove to the whole ocean that their crew is the best. (at least in the Viridian :P)

3. We give less points to people who get Learning because this contest is about who is the most skilled. It's simply common sense to pick the best of your crew to participate. Still, I'll consider lessening the deduction.
 * Her point was that in system terms, Learning and Booched are actually the same score in the puzzle. Learning is shown to Greenies who score X and Booched to non-greenies who scored exactly the same in the puzzle. There shouldn't be two different penalties for the same score. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 11:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)
 * Yes, I understood that she was stating system terms, that's why I said I'll consider lessening the deduction. I was simply stating my side. - Arich

4. About people PVP-ing participants, heck, it's worth a try to ask the OMs to ban them. lol
 * Typically they announce the non-PVP request periodically via broadcast, and board and punish people who do PVP. Banning, however, is not one of punishments. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 11:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)--Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 11:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)
 * Yup, this was just a joke. :) I was just thinking about the people who is one of the participants that got pvp'ed...they'd probably start yelling "Ban them!" :P - Arich

5. Giving only one league point is the biggest challenge for this contest. I, personally, only know a handful of people who can get incred for carpentry at the first league point, but please, do keep in mind that this contest wishes to find out who is the best. Getting an Incredible or at least an Excellent at the first league point would prove that you are one.

6. The setup you proposed is much like what me and my crew have discussed. It warms my heart that they are giving me their full-support for this. (I think it's because of the familiar at the end of E2 :P)

7. About the prizes, well, the best deserve the best. Bragging rights would be much better partnered with solid evidence of your crew's achievement. :)

8. I've already stated that the contest will be held at the route between Harmattan Island and Kirin Island. As which island they will start from is still to be decided.
 * Not every detail in your event proposal need be accepted or followed exactly. The reason for having this workshop session is to help you see the potential pitfalls in your plan and avoid them. You'd do well to consider Crystal's advice carefully, and not dismiss it just because it doesn't fit with your existing plans. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 11:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)

9. Special-named alts are there to mask the identity of the judges/event planners so as to avoid tells from friends of their main character. Avoid suspiscion of cheating et al.

10. Since the contest will require crews to use their own vessels, it would be troublesome to have everyone port somewhere which is out-of-the-way. The OMs may have the ability to whisk a ship to an island, but still, it's too much of a hassle to make sure all of the contestants have been whisked. We deem it better that the contest be held in the Jade Archipelago rather than the other 2.
 * You might deem it better, but the OMs might not agree. They don't generally turn off brigands on near in routes, as doing so changes the game for the large numbers of people who are not participating in your event. By choosing an out of the way route, you're less subject to PVP, and brigands can be turned off more readily. Again, please don't feel so wedded to the small details in your plan, and be open to changing them if required. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 11:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)

11. It has been suggested that crews be given slots to compete. Meaning, they will tell us when their crew is available to partake in the event. It's a bit sketchy, and I don't think I can edit the entry yet...or can I?
 * Yes, feel free. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 11:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)

12. So far, from my crew alone, I expect 15 - 18 volunteers to help out and watch over the event. I have yet to ask my other friends across the Viridian.

13. Teams of less than 20 people will not be allowed to compete. If one of them lazes, it's their problem. The crews must have at least Celebrated in fame to be able to join in on this event.

I don't mind being asked questions, but please try to read understand what the contest is about and what has already been discussed here. Thank you, these discussions are helping us a lot. :) - Arich, Captain of the Booty Snatchers --
 * This is quite rude. Crystal is one of the Mentors, she has vast experience running a variety of events, and she's asked a series of very helpful questions that point out a number of potentially significant flaws in your event. You don't need to heed every one of her suggestions, but you do need to treat her with respect. You might keep this part of the Judging criteria in mind: Event Planner (Working with Mentors, Accepting feedback, Providing feedback to others). as you go through the workshop phase. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 11:35, 14 February 2006 (PST)

Further comments from Crystal
Excuse me?! I *did* read, I *do* understand what you're trying to do. I'm trying to make comments and suggestions that will improve the running and organisation of the event, and hopefully improve people's participation and enjoyment. That's the point of this. I'm trying to point out flaws (e.g. you may not be able to get brigands turned off on your chosen route) and offer solutions (e.g. OMs can provide charts for out-of-the-way routes), and you just restate your original plan as if I just didn't read it. --Crystal 10:25, 14 February 2006 (PST)

-- Hmmmm, I think this discussion started off at the wrong foot. I'm sorry if I seemed rude to you, I'm just a straight forward kind of guy. Might I request that instead of giving what may or may not be allowed that I be given what will and will not happen. I'd like that more. With what has been opened up to discussion, yes, my plans are quite grand, but I do believe that being dubbed as the most skilled crew would reward something of equal reputation. If I cannot award the winners with such prizes, I'd rather see a straight up "No". Adjustments will be done accordingly as long as the event will not lose its appeal to the crews in the Viridian. - Arich, Captain of the Booty Snatchers --
 * I can't speak in absolutes about what the OMs will and will not do. It's not my place to do so. I imagine that Artemis will be along eventually to give you 'yes/no' answers, but in the interim, as someone with experience running events, I can tell you what they've done in the past, and what is a reasonable expectation of what they might do in the future based on that. The sooner you realize where your plans are likely to be unsuccessful, the sooner you can start working on your contingency plans. --Jacquilynne / Jasandrea 20:16, 14 February 2006 (PST)
 * Thank you. May I ask that I keep the original plan first and not change it until it is disproved by the OMs? Or should I change them now? This does not mean I'm dismissing your suggestions, but simply reserving them when needed the most. It seems the general impression I'm getting is that I should resort to the contingency plans already. - Arich

--Crystal 10:15, 15 February 2006 (PST)
 * Mate, no-one is going to force you to make changes, other than where you're saying things that are totally impossible. I would suggest that you take the mentors' comments seriously in this process - if the events were only supposed to change according to what Artemis said and no-one else, then the event wouldn't have been set up with a group of mentors. And Artemis wouldn't be getting any sleep this month. ;) However, it's absolutely fine to keep your event description as it is till Artemis has provided some comments if that's what you want to do.
 * I'd like to address the comment that you've made a couple of times with reference to prizes, that you're going for the "most skilled crew" and that prizes should be commeasurate with that. Speaking very frankly, and with no malice, this event will not find the "most skilled crew" - not in any sense. An event to find the most skilled crew (and it's one that might be worth thinking through - my mind's been buzzing a little with ideas) would require a rather greater breadth and length than this event. What you are finding, if anything, is the "crew that gets the best start". More of a "standing jump" event than a decathlon, if you will. My point earlier was that this event, being first league only, is highly prone to the vagaries of luck - luck in the carpentry pieces, the first constellation, the sailing targets, etc. That doesn't make it a poor event - it could be fun! But it does mean that almost by definition, you're not finding the most skilled crew - you're finding the crew who got lucky with their opening boards and did well with them. Given that this is an event where luck will decide maybe 50% of the final position, I'm uncomfortable with seriously big prizes for it. If you have the resources to give away all those ships, then fine, you're free to do so, but be aware that the bigger the prizes get, the more people taking part will expect things to be fair and even. I think the prizes could be much smaller than you describe. I mean, a renamed ship and a throne for third place? And I certainly don't think a crew event that is so luck-dependent should be involved with a familiar.
 * "Special alts". I still disagree with you on this. If you don't want people to know exactly who each judge is, create new alts. Seriously. There's no need for special characters. The contestants still know it's you and your mates - any "suspicion of cheating" isn't going to be eased by the fact that they have special names.

Just picked this up. You said "By "ringers" you mean, Dread Ringers, correct? I seriously doubt the OMs would want to help other crews to prove they're the best." He didn't mean the Dread Ringers. Ringers in this sense means people who are brought in for a particular event who don't normally form part of the team. So a crew could well be celebrated already, but could recruit (for the day) 5-10 superb pirates/alts from elsewhere for this event. There's no need for an alt crew to bring ringers in. --Crystal 13:37, 15 February 2006 (PST)

--Artemis 19:41, 16 February 2006 (PST)
 * Everyone else happens to be correct, this isn't an appropriate familiar event. Sorry for taking so long, I think everyone else has commented on the suggestions I'd have had, though, so please give the comments already made some thought!

(Please forgive me if random players are not supposed to comment...) If I were participating in this event, I'd just turn about a few times in the middle of the league to make sure my puzzlers had time to get full sparkle. Presto, straight Increds! --Zava 20:53, 16 February 2006 (PST)

Hey, good point! Perhaps, then, there has to be a time element as well. Teams are timed to reach the league point, and all ships in winning positions must have finished within 20 seconds of the fastest time? --Crystal 08:20, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Thanks for bringing that up. Even if we had a judge on each war brig to watch out for turn abouts, the navver can always sacrifice the -2 and keep on booching nav to make the ship do so automatically. Seems this event might be leaning towards using the bake-off setup...or at least show a bit of resemblance to it. :P - Arich

As far as prizes are concerned, I need to know: I'll start distributing prizes after I return from Blackpool in March and will discuss any problems with prizes that I have at that time.
 * What Prizes/trinkets you're requesting
 * Where I should put the prizes (ocean/island/house name)
 * For any renames, what the original and renames of the ships should be as well as the crew and island where they can be found
 * --Artemis 17:23, 21 February 2006 (PST)

Hmmm, I can't seem to figure out a way for navvers to not booch their duty on purpose to give their a crew more time to get the increds. I was thinking of giving a very big deduction when someone booches their navigation...like a -10 or something, or we might as well just eliminate the nav duty from the competition...what do you guys think? I honestly would rather not use the methodology of the bake-offs (ie 20 turns) - Arich

Forum Post
Is there a forum post for this event yet? I haven't been able to find it, and it should be up by now. Please link it here if there is one.

He has been online....Arich? Dude, where are ye?

Final Prize and Support Information
As of right now, this is the list of prizes and support I have listed for the OM's to provide for you, if anything is not correct or complete you need to get in touch with me as soon as possible, I will not around the whole weekend! Please give the OM's plenty of time to respond to any requests and speak to them in advance if at all possible, for some of you that will be more important than others. I've given a copy of the standard OM schedule to Jacquilynne as well if I'm not available.


 * Prizes: None
 * Support: Broadcast

--Artemis 09:32, 3 March 2006 (PST)


 * I'm sorry, but it seems I have to forfeit my chance to run an event. My real work is demanding more of my time that I only have a couple of minutes to spare to actually check on my crew. I am sorry for the hassle and you need not give me the trinket for being shortlisted. Oh, and I did not announce the event in the forums because i was worried about my availability. Apologies. - Arich

Well, you still have two weeks. If you find the time, please pop back in! --Artemis 12:23, 3 March 2006 (PST)