Talk:Sea monster

Damage estimates
Just placed 6 shots into a light Triketos and it died. So I upped the damage count on the page. --Alexus2005 07:27, 15 September 2007 (PDT)

These estimates are incorrect. We just put 22 large into a Scout Archelon and it's still alive. --Sagacious (talk) 08:35, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

The thing is, you must also take into account the fact that these monsters repair damage. It's not how many shot you put into it - it's how quickly you put it over the magical 100% damage. --Piplicus 09:20, 11 September 2007 (PDT)


 * The first set given for the Archelons were quite far out - possibly a typo? I'm keeping a note of shots to sink for any we get - the ones for the Triks are fairly straightforward - I just don't want to guess 2 large for the Scout without confirming it. --Sagacious (talk) 09:25, 11 September 2007 (PDT)


 * Unless you cold shot 8 shot into them in one turn, with them having accumulated no damage from anywhere else, you can not easily determine numbers, without breaking out the obscure maths and vast quantities of experimental data. Even if you did then, are you sure it took 6 shots and not 5? I can't remember right now if a ship is allowed to sink between the first and second shot. --Piplicus 11:05, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

EDIT: I really don't think we should have numbers unless you can honestly say that the situation happened as described above. The reason why archelons are so hard to sink with a war brig is that they repair damage so quickly. You can't just say it takes x shot and leave it at that.

Think of it as trying to go up a (alow-moving) down escalator. To sink the monster, you have to be able to reach the top. Each time you shoot it, you get to walk up a stair. Each turn, you can walk up 8 stairs (plus whatever else for ram damage). However, in the 35 seconds it takes to get another set of shots in, the escalator has taken your height down. If you try and sink an archelon with small shot, it's going to repair more than 8 shots' worth of small balls each turn. --Piplicus 11:30, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

Double edit:

Official:Atlanteans seems to debunk the theory that different levels of sea monsters have different damage capacities:

''Each type of creature can be seen in four varieties: Scout, Light, Heavy, and Elite. The Elite versions are significantly more able to deal with damage and can more consistently maneuver themselves around the board. Scout varieties may be easier to keep damaged but pirates should still be cautious when approaching even a Scout Gorgonyx as it is as big as its Elite cousins and its ram attack does the same deadly damage.''

The only difference between types is the AI and the rate at which the damage goes down.


 * The Trikes are definately easier to sink than other sea monsters - reguardless of difficulty level. We did literally pump 6 large into a Heavy Trike to sink it - more than once - at least once was a clean done-in-one-turn thing. And most were fresh spawn from a Citadel. For the Light and Elite - we surely hit them within two turns the specified number of shots. The figure I got for Scouts is a pattern guess.


 * I'm resisting putting other figures up - since some bumps have thrown some figures and some kills were progressive over so many turns or interrupted by a break. But I think we're looking at 20-22 large for a Light Archelon, around 14 for Light Gorgonyx and around 18 for a Heavy Gorgonyx. They are guide figures based on one or two sinks. --Sagacious (talk) 12:07, 11 September 2007 (PDT)


 * Also on the point of repair speed - there has to be some sure cut-off for number of shots to sink. We have listed the number of shots needed to sink various ship types - and that doesn't take into account that the ship could have elite carpers aboard... --Sagacious (talk) 12:19, 11 September 2007 (PDT)


 * No, you're getting the wrong idea.

there has to be some sure cut-off for number of shots to sink.

There isn't. The figures we have listed on the ship pages is an absolute value. That's their capacity. If you shoot a ship to 99%, and then let it repair for a while, it isn't going to take one shot to sink it.

 around 14 for Light Gorgonyx and around 18 for a Heavy Gorgonyx.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you're going around it in a haphazard way. All gorgonyxes have the same capacity to take damage before sinking. However, the rate at which the elite ones repair mean it takes longer. However, you'd be better off trying to work out things as a function of time and then extrapolate to the raw numbers.

You can base the sinking numbers off the triketoi purely off '6 shot dead' - but when it takes several turns to sink it, you need to quantise and then factor in the rate of damage reduction.

You can get the right numbers, but it's not easy. --Piplicus 13:57, 11 September 2007 (PDT)


 * there has to be some sure cut-off for number of shots to sink.
 * Some bad wording on my part. I meant that because we have numbers given on ship articles for shots to sink - we should have them here for sea monsters. I realise now that this whole calculation of shots to kill sea monsters versus monster repair will take a lot of experimentation to get right. I've reworked the article note before the table - based on what I now understand of the system of monster damage.
 * Interesting points made though Pip :). What this all means is we probably can't blatantly convert shot counts from one type into the other two types because of the whole "turns needed to unload the specified number" issue. A sloop will take double the number of turns to put 16 small into an Elite Trikeon than a War Frig does unloading 8 into one - meaning the monster has more repair time when being attacked with a sloop. I think that's what you were explaining above - and it's a stupidly true point. Would I be correct in saying that this kind of turns-to-fire-shots issue doesn't affect ship vs ship battles so much as sea monsters appear to? --Sagacious (talk) 02:45, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

We skirt around the issue by not taking damage repair into account. dDamage/dt is a parameter in its own right (mostly negative) determined by some function of the carpers' performances. However, it's reasonable in its own right to believe that dDamage/dt for a sea monster is constant. If you can find this number, you're on to something. However, determining this number won't be easy. --Piplicus 08:16, 12 September 2007 (PDT)


 * I assume that the only way to get such a number would be to put say - count the shots it takes to kill the monster without any gap (So for example, 6 large into a Heavy Triketos in one turn - killing it) which confirms the damage of 6 shots kills. Then find the same monster, put two shots into it, wait maybe two turns before putting more shots into it in one turn - and counting how many shots it takes. If it takes 5 more to kill it - then it can heal 1 large shot damage in two turns or less. Repeat for every type and every species of monster. It's a very very long way to go about it - makes me wonder if it's worth it. --Sagacious (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

That would work, except you'd also have to factor in the fact that sinking requires 100% damage, and that a cannon ball may take the damage from 99% to 104%, resulting in some unquantifiable uncertainty. --Piplicus 09:07, 15 September 2007 (PDT)

I'm putting the table on the talk page, because as is, it's just plain inaccurate.

Now, someone edited the page, and Sagacious reverted it. Because it fits a pattern is shoddy reasoning (I have seen them sink with 4 is good reasoning, though). I have been led to believe that all sea monsters have the same damage capacity. Unless the elite, heavy and light triketoi repair damage like godspeed, then I call the scout figure as completely wrong.

A table isn't going to be helpful, as people will complain it doesn't fit their own observations. Sagacious, if you want to do the research into it, feel free. But until we have some hard facts with respect to damage numbers, I don't like seeing a table. --Piplicus 09:13, 15 September 2007 (PDT)


 * I wish the official documentation was a little clearer with regards to exactly what the different strengths can mean in terms of variables. It's near impossible to get any accurate figures until we're told that Scout, Light, Heavy and Elite relate to damage repair speed and that different sea monster species are all the same in terms of damage they can take. I'm about ready to call off this hunt for figures - it just doesn't seem possible to work any out :( --Sagacious (talk) 13:35, 15 September 2007 (PDT)


 * Make a large Atlantis-going party made of 4 WF's and pointing all cannons at a single monster? Unless it can take more than 32 larges to kill, you should be able to calculate the damage.--Eguee 00:13, 20 September 2007 (PDT)


 * I took a cutter in atlantis and it took me 10 shots to kill a light triketos (3 turns).--Jim38 09:01, 28 Spetember 2007 (PDT)


 * Just was in Atlantis took 8 shots to kill a Heavy Triketos not 6 like th graph says. There repair rate more then likly is .25 Lage cbs a turn. --Darkleon 11:21 am Feb 1, 2008


 * I took my longship to atlantis. I shot a light triketos 10 times in 2 turns. At the end of the second turn I sailed into the safe zone. The triketos didn't die. --Archywald 18:04, 10 Feb, 2008

Damage to Kill
The numbers below represent how many shots are equivalent to giving them 100% damage (and killing them). It will take arbitrarily more shots to kill in reality, depending on how rapid the shots are.

Weapons
It'd be great to see a list of sea monster weapons and associated damage. This is the reverse of the discussion above. --Barrister 17:02, 21 September 2007 (PDT)

Damage to Player ships
The numbers below represent how many shots or rams inflicted by sea monsters.

I was in Atlantis with a sloop, and have seen roughly 25% damage from a triketos dart and 50% from us both going headon against a triketos although it may be incorrect due to me pirates repairing. Will such be the same for other ships that be rammed and shot the same? I expect there will be tarting over the use of "darts" and how due to repairing we won't find out the damage incured. --Burnt Water 20:25, 5 October 2007 (PDT)

Nets don't give any damage --Avenger--

Time for a test
Heading into atlantis with nicorobin on viridian... she is well experienced and will get some information on the maxing of atlanteans... Will upload when finished, but so far good idea on the light archelon..

Here is what i saw in atlantis. All monsters were new (non attacked)
Each line is a new turn

Light Gorgonyx -- 8 Shots hit 1 ram 0 Shots 2 Shots hit 4 Shots Hit 1 ram (died then)

Heavy Triketos -- 8 Shots hit (died)

Light Triketos -- 1 ram 2 Shots hit 2 rams 2 Shots hit (died)

Light Triketos -- 2 Shots hit by another Triketos 1 Ram from us                 2 Shots hit from us                  1 Shot hit 2 Shots hit (dead)

Light Gorgonyx -- 6 Shots hit 2 Shots hit 4 Shots hit 1 Ram 1 Ram (died)

Light triketos -- 2 Shots hit 1 Ram 2 Shots hit 1 Ram (died)

Thats what i have so far. We were in a War Frig with large cannon balls.. I'll let you do the math on figuring out the light gorgonyx stuff lol

Heavy Archelon info
Was in Atlantis night against a Heavy Archelon. Over 3 straight rounds I hit it with 22 large and we collided twice and it sunk. I do not believe it was damaged previously. That was the first time I sunk one in continuous rounds. -Yelerbeard on Viridian-

Collecting Data
I'll be doing some data collection from now as well. There have been so many requests to include sea monster stats in QuarterMaster V2.3 that I would really like to give it my best shot before giving up.

From the information posted so far I think a good place to start will be with the following hypothesis:

- Each of the three creature types have differing amounts of max hitpoints.

- The max hitpoints may or may not vary across the four levels within a single creature type.

- All creatures repair themselves once each turn.

- All creatures of the same type and level repair themselves for the same amount each turn.

- All creatures will only repair up to their max hitpoints.

- The amount repaired may or may not vary across the three creature types.

- The amount repaired may or may not vary across the four levels within a single creature type.

Please note this is only a hypothesis. It's just a guess that I'd like to use as a starting point. Once we have more data we can look to see what works and what doesn't. The important thing about making an hypothesis is that it gives you somewhere to start.

Hopefully in the end we will have some workable data. Sea monsters are not the same as ships, probably because of the self-repair factor. But this still can be workable. For example the Light Triketos could be recorded as Max-HP(8) Repairing(1 point per turn). While this is a little more complex to track than ships, it still could be usefull to a navigator who understands what's going on. And then for those who don't track damage, just having some idea what you are up against would be a boon.

Results

I posted all results to the forums here. I'm not very good at wiki editing though. If I tried to format it here I would probably crash something, lol.

-Tailspin (Soar) on all oceans.

Citing 2nd person is permitted now?
Quote-- It was also said that an archelon is the same size as a Grand Frigate, from it's rams.

Since when did we allow unverified facts/ 2nd person gossip perspective into articles? How do ye think we should reword this to conform to Y!PPedia guidleines? Also, does it mean an archelon is the same size or the same ram damage? --Erdd 19:20, 14 February 2008 (PST)